Thinking about a CCL & gun, suggestions?

MPTech

MPTech

Member # 032
Paid Member
Location
St. Louis (south county)
First Name
Mark
Last Name
Patterson
I've been thinking about getting my CCL & a pistol for a couple years, but everytime I set aside the cash, I found something shiney for the roadster to buy. I've decided that I'm going to commit to it for January. Currently, my plan is to sign-up for a CCL course in January and visit a range a couple times with friends (anyone interested in joining me?) to rent a variety of guns to try before purchasing something. I've talked to a couple guns guys I know and this was their suggestion, seems like a good plan to me.
I've done some research, but unsure what direction to go. Lots of opinions.
looking for some recommendations. Still undecided on revolver or clip-style.
seems like S&W,Glock, Ruger, Walther, Sig Sauer price point $500 - $700 for my first gun
There are SO MANY choices!


I see a lot of less positive comments about Kel-Tek and recommendations to go larger than a .22.
.357, .38, .45 seem to be the most common, 9mm seems most popular.
No Judge or shotgun pistols.

Ammo is a whole 'nuther discussion.........
 
Elmer Keith was noted for saying to use a caliber with a 4 in it. To put it in context though, this is like asking the benefits of a Big block vs Small block. (small block is better!). Everyone has their own opinion. I think your plan is a good one and you're coming at it with the right attitude. Be open to different things too. What fits my hand and is comfortable, may not work for you. I've shot single action (when you press on the trigger, it only releases the hammer thus single action), most of my life and the safeties built into a modern 1911 are just natural to me. The Glocks are fine weapons, but their triggers triggers don't feel right to me. My point is you'll have to find what works for you. It may be a pistol too, but I'd agree to not get any caliber starting with a 2. ;) Remember too that you'll have to conceal it, so plan on buying at least 1 good holster and possibly more for your different attire. I'm a bigger guy and I can hide a bigger frame because of it. Think about stuff like that as your looking at different pistols and all the manufacturers you mentioned make good pieces. With the different members in this club, we can get you shooting whatever you want. My girls started with a .22 and now regularly shoot .38, 9mm, .40 and .45LC and .45ACP. So with practice you can shoot about anything, and plan to practice. I'd be willing to go to the range with you. I look forward to seeing what you decide and I'm sure we could even help with reloads for practice. Now I'm going to sit back and eat popcorn for the rest of the show and read everyone else's comments. :D
 
Thanks Dan! This is helpful and re-confirms the direction I was heading.
Consider me a blank canvas, I have no pre-disposition and open to suggestions.
Right now I'm still gathering information.
 
if we do something like that, I have a different .40 you can try and then multiple variations of .45ACP and a couple of 45 Long Colts as well. Have you thought about a derringer? 2 shots, but it's smaller.
 
I would suggest getting two: a 22 for fun and a 9mm or similar caliber for CC. 22's are inexpensive so you can put a lot of rounds through them for little money and you will be able to hit what you are aiming at a lot better that a 357 mag! For CC, you want something that will do more than piss the guy off if you ever have to shoot someone. So a 9mm is good and ammo is readily available. Also, I don't think a revolver will ever be as accurate or repeatable as a semi auto. It's just the nature of the beast: you have to hold your aim while the mechanism is rotating a cylinder and cocking a hammer. Not conducive to an accurate shot. Just my opinion.
 
Mark,

Before you make a decision...there is a LOT to consider.

I have been shooting pistols since 1966 and have made a lot of mistakes and poor choices of firearms over the years.
I have owned and shot everything from .22...to 9mm...to .380....to 9mm Makarov...to 40 S&W...to 10mm...to 38 Special...to 357 mag...to .41 Mag ...to.44 mag...to 45 ACP...
I have owned and shot pistol models from Ruger...S&W...Keltec...Glock...SIG....Colt....Springfield Arsenal...Makarov....Luger....Taurus....CZ....Browning....Canik....

I would hope I can save you some expense and frustration with my observations.

For self defense...you want nothing smaller than a 9mm. Yes a .22 or .380 will mortally wound an assailant...but not before he can can shoot or mortally wound you. You don't want a caliber than can kill. Let that sink in....You want a caliber than can immediately incapacitate...and STOP the threat. Whether or not the round ultimately kills the threat... is of no consequence in saving your own life. You want ONLY to STOP the threat.

Having said that...there are NO CALIBERS that can guarantee an immediate incapaciation. Men have been known to take multiple shots from a 12ga shotgun at point blank range ...and still continue to fight and remain a lethal threat.

You also don't want a caliber so large that the recoil is hard to control and prevents you from making multiple accurate hits.

Note that the MO highway Patrol used to carry .357 Magnums...but no more.
The FBI has used everything from the 9mm & 40 S&W to the 10mm to the .45 ACP....but after years of use...they have recently converted back to the 9mm.
There were legitimate reasons for their conversion to the 9mm.

First and foremost has been the new bullet technology that has utilized solid monolithic copper projectiles which perform much like larger caliber rounds. Using these advanced bullets leaves a minimal difference in performance between the 9mm and the larger 45 ACP...while gaining magazine capacity.

Having 16-17 rounds in a defensive weapon is a far better choice than 9-11 rounds...particularly if confronted by multiple threats.
Plus...most of the .45 handguns of reasonable capacity are double stack designs that add bulk and weight making them difficult to conceal and to carry daily. Some .45's in an effort to minimize the weight and bulk and reduced the size have gone to single stack magazines...further reducing capacity to only 6-8 rounds. Not enough…in my opinion.

You will learn in professional training that contrary to what you see on TV and in the movies....you do not shoot once...and then hope the threat has been neutralized. You shoot and continue to shoot as rapidly and accurately as you can...until the threat is DOWN...and no longer a threat. Having a larger magazine capacity can be the difference in surviving a lethal confrontation.

Years ago I carried a S&W .357 Mag in a shoulder rig. It worked OK in the winter...but could not be carried in the summer. In the summer I tried to carry a small 5 shot Ruger revolver...but that was also too bulky and had limited shot capacity. I shot the revolvers very accurately...but they were not good sidearms for concealed carry.

I gravitated to the Glocks...carrying both a Model 17 and Model 19 for several years. The Glock's are great guns. Extremely reliable and accurate in skilled hands. But my hand was not one of them. I never could shoot the Glock comfortably. The grip angle was all wrong for me and I was constantly pointing the weapon higher than I was trying to aim. This is a common complaint of the Glock. As a result, I have three of them sitting in the safe...unused today. I have have a LOT of $$ invested in one trying to make me shoot better with it...all to no avail.

I then tried a CZ75. A Beautiful well made pistol that is very accurate. But...it was too heavy to carry on a daily basis and hard to conceal.

Next I tried a CZ clone made by Canik in Turkey. Another well made pistol that is a compact version of the CZ75...but still too heavy to carry daily.

Next I tried several Keltec PF-9's and carried them for several years. However...they are hard to grip well and not very accurate as a result. They also have a lot of snap & recoil being, a short light pistol. I also used a Crimson Trace laser with one to try to improve the effectiveness. They are "OK" for a pocket or backup gun in cargo pants in the summer...but they and the similar Ruger models are too small and too limited with mag capacity.

Finally....I was introduced to the Springfield Armory XD series of pistols by one of my instructors. They are a polymer pistol patterned loosely after the Glock...but are superior in several areas. First the grip angle is much improved and I shoot FAR better with one. They use high quality STEEL mags rather than the polymer mags used by Glock. Be aware that I had half a dozen factory Glock mags fail after being left loaded for several years where the mags split down the back through the small holes use to visually check mag capacity. That is a major shortcoming of the Glock not often mentioned.

I have now been using the full size Springfield XD for training over the last 14-18 months and love it. For concealed carry I use the smaller XD Mod2...which I highly recommend. It is not cheap running around $500...but you get excellent ergonomics...fiber optic sights...loaded chamber indicator...trigger safety AND a grip safety...something the Glock's lack. PLUS thy use excellent high quality Mec-gar STEEL 13rd and 16 rd magazines. The full size XD uses the 16 rd mag and the Mod2 uses the 13 rd mad...however the 16 rd mag will also fit...so I carry the 13 rd in the weapon with an extra 16 rd mag for backup. The only modification is the addition of a finger rest on the 13 rd mags made by Pierce Grips. VERY comfortable to shoot...VERY controllable...and naturally pointing. The red fiber sights of the Mod2 are excellent as is the grip texture. A very well designed side arm.

However...this is only my experience. Yours may be different. I would suggest trying the XD's and also trying the S&W M&P polymer pistols. The S&W would have been my second choice behind the XD and they get good reviews by their owners.

But before buying anything...try several at the range to see what fits you well and what you shoot well.

However...I would stay with the 9mm Luger round using a Hornady XTP 147g solid copper projectile for protection. The only "conventional" lead bullet I would consider for protection is the Winchester Ranger 147g Bonded JHP used by many LEO agencies. For training...any inexpensive 115g round will work fine. But stick with the heavier 147g projectiles for protection.




Also…the decision to carry concealed is not a light decision to make. It is a complete change in lifestyle. It is a dedication to become the very best at protecting yourself, your family and those around you who are unable to protect themselves from harm. It is not something you do once a week. It is something you commit to do every day without exception. It is a decision to carry even where it is not allowed by liberal minded but misguided people who falsely think a gun free zone is safer. Gun free zones are the most dangerous places you will ever visit and for those of us who do carry…the penalty of having to leave an establishment for carrying an “unauthorized” weapon is far more acceptable… than having no means of self-defense… because another human being felt they knew better what was “best” for you.

I carry everywhere…with no exception. I even carry in my home.

Again… It is not a choice to be made lightly…and it is a change in both mindset and lifestyle.
Not everyone has the desire or willingness to meet a deadly threat head on…but we are all safer for the presence of those who do.

Kerry
 
Early in my life I thought I was a pretty good pistol shot...and could defend myself pretty well.....but I was fooling myself. I though putting all my shots... at slow fire... in the X ring on a piece of paper was all I needed to know. Only in the last several years did I learn how naive and wrong I was.

There is a MAJOR difference in being accurate on paper and being able to defend yourself under stress. Being able to carefully align your sights and slowly squeeze off several shots into a nice tight group has NO relationship to protecting yourself with a sidearm. In a defensive situation you will try to focus on only your front sight and the target...but many skilled shooters who have survived a shootout at close range have said that they never even looked at their sights. All there shooting was instinctive... where they relied on their training and muscle memory to quickly place all their shots on the center of mass of a threat. If you can draw and place 10 shots in an area the size of an orange at 7 ft....in less than 2 seconds....you are far better equipped to defend yourself than placing 10 shots in a group the size of a quarter in an unlimited amount of time at the same distance.

I have been extremely fortunate to have as my instructors some of the best, most experienced combat veterans from special forces including two Navy SEALS, one Green Beret, one gentleman who served as team leader for the protective detail to the US Ambassador to Afghanistan and one gentleman who worked in a clandestine position for the state department.

After their instruction....One of our final drills was to start with your hands raised at shoulder level... standing...facing 20 ft. from three steel 10" x 12" reactive targets spread 6 -10 ft. apart.

The scenario was one of being held up by three armed assailants.

This drill was designed...on the command of "Threat".... to see how fast we could draw from a belt mounted holster...engage three targets and make two solid hits on each target....with a total of six shots fired. Any misses...and you’re disqualified. Speed was critical...but not at the expense of accuracy.

Each shooter had a dry run and then three hot runs.... with the lowest time being your official score.
I scored third in our class of 12 shooters....at 3.77 seconds. For me...a dramatic improvement over my previous level of speed and accuracy.

The fastest student time was 3.55 sec. Our instructor was timed at 2.93 seconds.

To obtain a CCW permit should NOT be your final goal. It is just the first step in a series of steps to constantly improve your skills and level of confidence with a firearm.

Kerry
 
Regarding training....

Getting a certificate from a CCW class in NOT sufficient training to carry a sidearm.
Such a "training" class only meets minimal state requirements and gives a false sense of security. It is only the first step in a multi-step process.

First... get your CCW at a qualified training facility.

I would suggest ASUSA in Farmington:

CCW_zpssqeq1bpk.png



...then sign up for a "Basics of Tactical Shooting " class at ASUSA:

Basics%20of%20Tactical%20Shooting_zps472jxu7l.png



…then continue your training with a “Tactical Pistol 1” class:

Tactical%20Pistol%201_zpsc0dverfk.png



…and on to a “Tactical Pistol 2” class:

Tactical%20Pistol%202_zpsmcnzs9y0.png



…and then to an “Active Shooter class”:

Active%20Shooter_zpszkplbuln.png



You will not only learn how to use your sidearm effectively…but you will learn when NOT to use your sidearm.

The Active Shooter course is a real eye opener and a taste of reality that many CCW holders often don’t consider.

Kerry
 
WOW Kerry! THANK YOU very much!
That's a lot to digest, I'm going to read it a couple more times and take some personal notes & points, but I'm good with everything you said. As I stated, I'm keeping an open mind about my selection, but taking the decision seriously. I've been thinking about this for a couple years and listening to a lot of guys that know a lot more about them than I do (hell, that's how I built the roadster!)
This is not a "new toy" although I am enjoying the education thoroughly and looking forward to a purchase.
I also have concerns about friends and family that are fearful of guns and un-educated. (my wife being one, but she has agreed to taking the CCL course after I do. (no, I don't want to take it with her, she will be distracting to me).
I only know one personal friend of my wife's who is anti-gun, and she's a nutcase to begin with.
As to a couple of your points, I have an old .22 revolver my dad gave me a few years ago, but to be honest, I never fired it.
I was already leaning towards a semi-automatic for a couple reasons. So I'll be doing more research in that direction.
I'll also come back to the ammo later, after I've decided on a caliber and model. But practicing with one and loaded with another makes a lot of sense too.

Thanks again!
 
I looked around on-line last night for Springfield Armory XD Mod2. Kinda hard to find in stock. A lot of places said "out-of-stock". Price was $549. I watched a few of their videos on line. Seems like a well thought out design. Gander Mountain seems to have in stock - the best deal - ship to store for an additional $25. The kit comes complete with case, holster, 2 different clips, lock, etc.
 
Good tip Mark, Thanks. I've been watching the XD Mod2 videos for the last 2 hours :D and it really looks like a great gun. I'm really liking that one and definitely want to try one out.
Now my problem is too many choices!

I also found this TOP 10 9mm PISTOLS list.

1. CZ 75 SP-0 $759.99
2. EAA Witness Elite Match $649.99
3. Springfield XDm 4.5 $712.49
4. Baby Eagle II BE9915R $1599.99
5. SIG Sauer P226 $999.99
6. Beretta 92FS $619.99
7. FN Herstal FNX-9 $740.99
8. Glock 17 Gen 4 $599.99
9. Taurus PT 92 $479.99
10. Walther P99 AS $649.99
 
MPTech said:
Good tip Mark, Thanks. I've been watching the XD Mod2 videos for the last 2 hours :D and it really looks like a great gun. I'm really liking that one and definitely want to try one out.
Now my problem is too many choices!

I also found this TOP 10 9mm PISTOLS list.

1. CZ 75 SP-0 $759.99
2. EAA Witness Elite Match $649.99
3. Springfield XDm 4.5 $712.49
4. Baby Eagle II BE9915R $1599.99
5. SIG Sauer P226 $999.99
6. Beretta 92FS $619.99
7. FN Herstal FNX-9 $740.99
8. Glock 17 Gen 4 $599.99
9. Taurus PT 92 $479.99
10. Walther P99 AS $649.99
Click to expand...

Mark,

All these pistols are full size frames...too large for concealed carry.

I have owned and attempted to carry five of those ten models listed daily...and they were simply too large and hard to conceal.
Great firearms...good for training or open carry....just too big for the intended purpose of concealed carry.

I would never consider Gander Mountain for anything firearm related. Their prices are too high and you are forced to pay outrageous sales taxes. At $575 delivered to the store plus 9% sales tax...that's $626.00 out the door... $100 higher than it should be.

I buy most all my firearms here...but I wait for them to go on sale at really great prices:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/firearms/handguns.html?firearm_caliber=892&manufacturer=223

Right now the Springfield XD Mod 2 9mm is out of stock...(for very good reasons)...however it lists for $499...with no sales tax to pay as you would a local retailer...and shipping is always reasonable and less than local tax.

I would get on the Palmetto email list...then click to be notified when a specific out of stock firearm is back in stock. They are short on inventory right now due to Black Friday and Christmas sales. But they will be back in stock.

They often have the XD-S and XD-M compact 9mm on sale for less than $360. Both are very compatible to the XD Mod 2 without the fiber optic sight and better grip.

I have bought multiple firearms from Palmetto at sale prices that were LESS than dealer cost...by a substantial margin. I have a good friend wo owns Cedar Falls Tactical near Farmington and he is constantly complaining that I am buying firearms from Palmetto cheaper than he can buy them wholesale from his distributors. Palmetto is the Walmart or Costco of firearm sales.

Another source to check is Grabagun.com

http://grabagun.com/firearms/handgu...906&frame_per_material=1300&manufacturer=2538
 
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This is the comparison between the XD Mod 2 on the left....and the XD Compact it replaced....

Note the fiber optic front sight and adjustable combat rear sight.
Plus the improved grip shape and texture.

To add the fiber optic sights to the older model would add a minimum of $100 to the cost...closer to $150 with labor... making the Mod 2 a much more cost effective choice in the long run.

Most important...note that both have the MANDATORY Pierce magazine finger rest.... Part # PG-XD.... that is necessary to provide an improved grip, aiding controllability and pointability. The finger rest shown is inexpensive and adds greatly to the effectiveness of the pistol.

DSC_5247_zps9dn4stqk.png
 
Thanks Kerry, didn't realize the list guns were fullsize from looking at them and didn't check the specs on them yet.
Also thanks for the Gander Mountain info. I wasn't planning to buy there, just looking for comparison. I'll check Palmetto out.

btw, also thinking about joining the NRA. do you recommend it?
 
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Here is an XD Mod 2 9mm.... for $449.00 + $35 shipping and 5.975% sales tax....

Only $510.83....delivered to your local FFL of choice. Plus a $20 local FFL fee...and your GTG for less than $531.00

But...sale ends in 19 hours.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=534247896#PIC

However...if it were me...I would just drive to Belle MO and pick it up there from the dealer...saving shipping and possibly the transfer fee.
 
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NOTE:

The link provided previously to the GunBroker site is for a newer model of XD Mod 2 9mm part number XDG9101HCSP.
It is NOT the model I would suggest for concealed carry.
It is a larger version with fulll size frame and 4" barrel.

The model I would recommend and the model I carry is part number XDG9801HCSP which is the COMPACT XD frame with 3" barrel.

Sorry for the confusion...but I failed to note the Gun Broker item was the newer, full size version when I posted the link and could not edit the original post...
...(due to the too short 10 minute edit window).

Kerry
 
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