I was at the track last Tuesday. That's why I wasn't at the meeting. A few notes. Intermediate class kicked my butt. I had to let so many cars pass that it was hard to get a good lap in. I made one change to the car since we all did the MisFits day. I upped the camber from -.5 to -1.3. That made a huge improvement on the turns and the car never pushed once all day. Before I had a lot of push. The front end feels much more planted and the car feels like it rotates now. On the flip side I was nervous the rear was going to be loose. So I didn't push as hard as I normally do. I had a goal to not spin out and didn't want to push it causing a spin. Unfortunately I did spin once. Not from pushing too hard but from a mistake. Going into turn 5 I was late to brake and turned at the same time causing a spin. Or so I think. The guy behind me had video and that's what he thought. It's hard to put down a good time when you're always slowing to allow cars to pass. So time didn't improve, but I did tie my best time from the Misfits a couple times. I was a little disappointed at first. But it was in a more controlled manner and not pushing as hard. So I'll take that as improvement. I'll post the Misfits best time video and then last Tuesdays below. I think my line was a little better but still needs work. Let me know what you think.
SCCA Track Day 9-13-22
- Thread starter Tony_G
- Start date
Cool thanks for sharing Tony
Some Observations:
- In your misfits video, you were not near as smooth. Almost spinning a couple of times, but, still able to manage a 1:18
- In your SCCA video, much smoother, and same time.
- Lesson in that is, like Days Of Thunder, Rear end loose, the car is fast. Loose is fast, but, on the edge of out of control.
- To me, you're leaving time on the track by not dropping the hammer between 2 & 3, braking hard, then accelerating hard out of the chicane (or S's) down to 5. Same with the exit of 6 to 7. Once the car is headed right direction roll, then hammer it......assuming you have the traction for that. Slicks would help, and race pads would help as well.
- I believe we are all timid in NASCAR 3 & 4. As you saw Rick, he left you in those turns leading to the straight. I know when I was behind him, he was way faster through NASCAR 3 & 4 than I. My top speed on exit was like 92, I believe Rick was carrying about 92 through 3 & 4, and on exit approaching 100....I could be wrong.
Intermediate vs Novice - Intermediate will make you a better driver. Stick with it. You will observe, follow, lead, pass and learn more about your car and it's limits. You need to go to Putnam. WWT is ok for learning braking zones, but, handling/cornering, not so much as there is too much to hit. There are a lot of intermediate drivers that could move to Advance, but they, like me, aren't ready nor am I comfortable with passing anywere on the track. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Lot of guys register in Intermediate that are much better drivers. I feel you have enough track time that you need to be in Intermediate going forward. Sure, you won't have the instructor led feedback, but, you will see where you and your car really are.
Regarding your camber changes....Still streetable?? You have IRS, right? So, did you change all around?
- In your misfits video, you were not near as smooth. Almost spinning a couple of times, but, still able to manage a 1:18
- In your SCCA video, much smoother, and same time.
- Lesson in that is, like Days Of Thunder, Rear end loose, the car is fast. Loose is fast, but, on the edge of out of control.
- To me, you're leaving time on the track by not dropping the hammer between 2 & 3, braking hard, then accelerating hard out of the chicane (or S's) down to 5. Same with the exit of 6 to 7. Once the car is headed right direction roll, then hammer it......assuming you have the traction for that. Slicks would help, and race pads would help as well.
- I believe we are all timid in NASCAR 3 & 4. As you saw Rick, he left you in those turns leading to the straight. I know when I was behind him, he was way faster through NASCAR 3 & 4 than I. My top speed on exit was like 92, I believe Rick was carrying about 92 through 3 & 4, and on exit approaching 100....I could be wrong.
Intermediate vs Novice - Intermediate will make you a better driver. Stick with it. You will observe, follow, lead, pass and learn more about your car and it's limits. You need to go to Putnam. WWT is ok for learning braking zones, but, handling/cornering, not so much as there is too much to hit. There are a lot of intermediate drivers that could move to Advance, but they, like me, aren't ready nor am I comfortable with passing anywere on the track. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Lot of guys register in Intermediate that are much better drivers. I feel you have enough track time that you need to be in Intermediate going forward. Sure, you won't have the instructor led feedback, but, you will see where you and your car really are.
Regarding your camber changes....Still streetable?? You have IRS, right? So, did you change all around?
- Thread starter
- #8
Thanks Tim. I like the feed back. My plan is to do a Putnam day next year. Hopefully we can get a group together.
I’m nervous about dropping the hammer too hard or actually too fast. If you see in the Misfits on 6 and 7 when the car gets squirrley. That’s traction loss from the throttle. But I’ll work on it.
I do have race/ish pads. Wilwood Polymatrix E. The rears are getting pretty hot compared to the fronts. The backing plate steel shows signs. Blueing etc.. Not sure if it’s steel or stainless. So anywhere between 500-800 deg I’m guessing. I think I noticed where the rear pads lost some friction. I started having a little more pedal travel. Never felt I was loosing brakes though. I actually was wondering if I need to adjust to a little more front bias. You can see in the chart how the friction drops off from initial bite but then stays flat.
Not sure I want to go with slicks yet. If Rick can put down 2sec faster on 320 tires I need to improve my driving first. I’m on 200 tires.
Wish I could follow him around a lot more.
I have a solid axle 3 link rear. So the camber change was only to the front. It still streets just fine. Turns in much better now.
I’m nervous about dropping the hammer too hard or actually too fast. If you see in the Misfits on 6 and 7 when the car gets squirrley. That’s traction loss from the throttle. But I’ll work on it.
I do have race/ish pads. Wilwood Polymatrix E. The rears are getting pretty hot compared to the fronts. The backing plate steel shows signs. Blueing etc.. Not sure if it’s steel or stainless. So anywhere between 500-800 deg I’m guessing. I think I noticed where the rear pads lost some friction. I started having a little more pedal travel. Never felt I was loosing brakes though. I actually was wondering if I need to adjust to a little more front bias. You can see in the chart how the friction drops off from initial bite but then stays flat.
Not sure I want to go with slicks yet. If Rick can put down 2sec faster on 320 tires I need to improve my driving first. I’m on 200 tires.
Wish I could follow him around a lot more.
I have a solid axle 3 link rear. So the camber change was only to the front. It still streets just fine. Turns in much better now.
I don't think having your rears hotter than your fronts is a good thing. Having more front brake bias than the rears during high speed deceleration adds stability. I'm interested on your thoughts on why you went with the PolyMatrix E? Out of the 5 I only ever considered the BP-20 before going with another brand/model. I agree with holding off on the slicks, they tend to hide driver input errors. Not a bad idea to improve while on 200s. Great to see you getting it Tony! Wish I could be out there with you guys 
I've learned, 200 vs 320 vs 540 is just a tread wear rating.... Not a grip rating. The traction rating AA is what you're looking for. See my tire specs in the pic. But yes, generally speaking, the smaller the TW rating, the softer the tire... Not necessarily better grip. So, don't judge your times between you and Rick on tires. Two different cars. Keep making smooth laps, you will see improvement. Work on consistency. Don't just run one, two or three 1:18's, make that your normal lap.
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- Thread starter
- #11
Steven, when I set the brake balance I initially had the rears locking up first. I adjusted the balance bar slowly towards the front till I got the fronts to lock up first. I tested it a few weeks ago and still had the fronts lock first. So it’s most likely set at just slightly front balanced. As the rears heat up with these pads the car becomes more front balanced. (If all equal and I used the BP20 as the rears got hotter than the fronts I would possibly end up rear biased. Due to more friction with heat.) I don’t know how much front balance would be too much. Can I cause too much weight transfer that the rear becomes light? I think I’m going to buy the remote adjuster to make it easier to play with.
I didn’t choose the Poly E pads. I upgrade my Factory Five Wilwood brakes with Gordon Levy’s bigger Wilwood brakes. (Gordon is a Professional builder and parts supplier of Factory Five cars. And racer himself.) The Poly E is what he includes with his kits. His brakes are definitely an improvement over the Factory Five. I use the BP10 on the street.
My thinking is the rears are smaller with less pad volume causing them to not dissipate the heat as well or heat up easier than the fronts. The fronts are doing more work but capable to handle the heat better. Makes me wonder if Gordon use’s the PolyE pads for that reason. Rears get hotter than the fronts causing more front bias instead of possibly ending up with rear bias as they get hot. Might be worth giving him a call.
I didn’t choose the Poly E pads. I upgrade my Factory Five Wilwood brakes with Gordon Levy’s bigger Wilwood brakes. (Gordon is a Professional builder and parts supplier of Factory Five cars. And racer himself.) The Poly E is what he includes with his kits. His brakes are definitely an improvement over the Factory Five. I use the BP10 on the street.
My thinking is the rears are smaller with less pad volume causing them to not dissipate the heat as well or heat up easier than the fronts. The fronts are doing more work but capable to handle the heat better. Makes me wonder if Gordon use’s the PolyE pads for that reason. Rears get hotter than the fronts causing more front bias instead of possibly ending up with rear bias as they get hot. Might be worth giving him a call.
- Thread starter
- #12
Tim is that true? Why are the Hoosier slicks rated as C. (Refer to my tire size thread. ).
Notice they are taking wet stopping distances. So, an AA would stop better on the wet than a slick obviously
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- #14
Exactly my point. The AA, A, B, C is a wet traction rating. It’s meaningless if we are looking for dry traction. The 100, 200, 300 etc is going to give you a better idea for dry traction.
https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...920239!e!!g!!tire traction grade&gclsrc=aw.ds
- Thread starter
- #15
Ok, I talked to Gordon. He said I do need more front balance. The rears are working too hard. Said it should help oversteer when trail braking in corner entry also. But did say these cars don’t like trail braking much. Also said I could step up to a BP 30 if I wanted. If I still needed more front balance and run out of balance bar I could use a BP10 on the rears. Also said I would use 2-3 sets of rear pads to front. Just because they are so much smaller. I’m going to order the remote balance adjuster.I don't think having your rears hotter than your fronts is a good thing. Having more front brake bias than the rears during high speed deceleration adds stability. I'm interested on your thoughts on why you went with the PolyMatrix E? Out of the 5 I only ever considered the BP-20 before going with another brand/model. I agree with holding off on the slicks, they tend to hide driver input errors. Not a bad idea to improve while on 200s. Great to see you getting it Tony! Wish I could be out there with you guys
Heard you're going back over to Gateway tomorrow, be safe! What changes did you make for this track day?
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- #17
Going Tuesday the day of the meeting. I’ll probably stop by the meeting afterwards.
I added the brake bias adjuster so I can add more front bias. Also took the front sway bar up a notch. Hopefully that will put a little more grip to the rear.
I added the brake bias adjuster so I can add more front bias. Also took the front sway bar up a notch. Hopefully that will put a little more grip to the rear.
not sure stiffening front bar adds rear grip. More likely, front will push earlier now before loosing the rear (usually results in the driver more confident to push the car). If possible, soften the rear bar instead to add grip.
- Thread starter
- #19
I have the rear bar just about as loose as it will go. I’m about a half inch from the end of the bar with the slide link. Last track session after having the alignment set to -1.3 camber I had no front push at all. The rear felt like it was going to kick out if I pushed it harder. Before the camber change I had too much push. In order to get more rear grip you have to either loosen the rear or tighten the front. At least that’s the way I understand how it works.
or softer rear springs