Is Sheriff Dupnik correct?

Matthew 10:16

Matthew 10:16

Member # 003
Location (City)
Bethalto, IL.
First Name
David
Last Name
Virgin
Is the present climate of vitriolic/inflammatory American political rhetoric/discourse PARTIALLY responsible for the tragedy in Arizona?
 
No. That kid was nuts. There's no shortage of crazy people. If they want to do some harm, they'll find a way. BUT - sad as it is - there should have been some security at that event. Any security would have been helpful. He fired 31 shots, and the closest thing to stopping him was a woman who was already hit? Ridiculous.
 
STL Mark said:
There's no shortage of crazy people.
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Agreed. So true. Witness guy in Alton who killed his wife & her boyfriend this last weekend, the shooter at a city council meeting in FL. & the guy who went on a shooting spree in Kirkwood 3-4 yrs ago. All of them obviously rationalized & justified their behavior in their minds beforehand.

Do you believe that Giffords was his target? If yes, why in your opinion would he choose to target her? Or do you believe that her political beliefs were immaterial to his agenda & he was just randomly looking for someone to shoot? A witness who was there said that after he was subdued he had a smirk/grin of self satisfaction on his face. :(:mad:

Regardless of whether we do or do not believe that today's climate of political discourse had anything to do with his agenda, I personally don't like the current us against them polarization & hatred which seems to be proliferating & escalating in today's political system. Are we going to end up like the Sunnis & Shiites or the protestants & catholics or others unless those who are responsible for today's political discourse agree to talk civilly & respectfully about & to one another without vitriolic, inflammatory & disrespectful rhetoric?
 
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I suppose that we will not know his true mission until he gets a publisher.
With out a doubt he was targeting Giffords for what ever his agenda is/was/or never will be.
He was definately a troubled young man.
I know I will get a lot of flack for what I am about to say, but here goes anyway.....about the weapon he used....Glock 9mm(I think) capable of firing that many shots(reports range from 20-31) .....why does anyone on the street in a concealed carry state that? And he was trying to reload. Why was no one else packin?
I belive in right to bear arms and never thought I would consider any type of regulations, but this scenerio is making me rethink.
The political rhetoric had already started before the shooters name was known....gotta have those ratings so report what ever is on your mind regardless of truth or fiction. New reporting has gone to hell in the recent past. I think , aw shit nevermind.
 
The people and organizations that would turn this horrible event into a discussion of anything other than grief and dismay are at the very least silly, and more likely evil themselves. Blaming rhetoric, politics, or radio personalities is actually delusional and insane. It's like blaming auto makers for drive by shootings, or McDonald's for fat people, or blaming music for sex, drugs and teenage pregnancies. Further to engage in discussions about gun control is equally delusional. Are they equally upset when it comes to the daily execution of people that occur in our ghettos every single day? Thought so. He was going to kill somebody with or without a gun. This kid was nuts. Plain and simple. He's is a drug addicted, confused and psychotic young person. Some may want to say he's evil. I'm not sure about that, although it's an easy case to make. But, to blame Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, or heated political speech is evil of that I have no doubt.

The cause of this horrible story is the person not the society. Give me a break. Also, where was the security. For god's sake even your local city council meeting has security. This Bambi-like naivety about just meeting with the people is a gross oversight. There should have been at the very least a Highway Patrol officer present.

Save me from the "good" people.
 
Thank you for your response Michael/A Snake. I greatly admire & respect you for your wisdom, integrity & patriotism.

I'm sure there is lots of blame to go around. But the heck with what all of us think in regard to who or what should be blamed. More importantly perhaps, who or what do the victims & their families think should share the blame. It will be interesting to see what they have to say as this unfolds.

Grief & dismay is of course very important, but we as a nation should also reflect on other concerns as well so we as a nation can attempt, "civilly & respectfully," to effect change which will better our nation and make it more safe.
 
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Matthew 10:16 said:
... to effect change which will better our nation and make it more safe.
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Change? Us? Sorry, not buying it. Now WE have to change? Change what? Change what we say? How we say it? Why stop there? Should we change what we wear? drive? eat? Then, they'll have us change what and how we worship, what we sing about, who we can talk to, where we can go. Why stop there? It's the slipperiest slope of all slippery slopes.

The only thing that should be changed IMHO is that our public servants should approach their own personal security with the same alacrity that they so eagerly force upon us at every airport in the country. It's called personal responsibility.

But, I'm really not without a heart. Liberally speaking, if anything this incident speaks volumes for the woeful lack of funding and utter disregard for the mentally ill in this country. A more compassionate society would have been able to single out this drug addicted nut job a few years ago and given him the thoughtful treatment he so desperately deserves.
 
What I'm talking about here Mark is a respectful exchange of opinions and discourse on changes we can effect as a nation which will attempt to avoid a repeat of the Az tragedy. Freedom of speech will not die if we respect one another by speaking civilly & respectfully about & to one another.

40 yrs (?) ago a shooter went to top of the UT tower in Austin, Tx & killed many senselessly. In those days that sort of thing was unheard of. Now "crazies" are seemingly continuously "copy catting" each other evidently for momentary "fame & notoriety."

The change I'm talking about is how can we do things differently to put a stop to the carnage?
 
The thing is - everyone (the left in this case) is so very quick to point a finger at the right or at gun owners. That's very wrong and very evil. This guy was a lone wolf terrorist. He was just crazy and drug addicted. It's just not complicated. We don't need to change the society because of one nut job. So, how do we stop the carnage? That's easy. Love each other unconditionally, like he taught us. Until that happens though, I'll just keep a loaded clip handy. Thank you.
 
I'm not pointing a finger at only 1 side. I'm pointing a finger at both sides.

Think of it this way. You & Lisa are newly weds. Lisa fixes a dish for you & pours out all of her love for you into the dish. You exercise free speech & say "Jeez honey Mom's is better." Now bear in mind you are correct. BUT after you have received a bashing upside the head with the frying pan for hurting Lisa's feelings with your correct free speech you begin to realize that maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully. :D If you had chosen your words more carefully your speech arguably would not have hurt Lisa's feelings & you would not have suffered the consequences of your hurtful words. :eek::D:p;) BTW Lisa doesn't need a loaded clip, she can hurt you in other ways that are worse. :eek: :D

BTW We can love each other unconditionally by being respectful to one another.

I also wish to add that I believe that it is highly possible that this tragedy had nothing to do with political rhetoric. One of his former college classmates said she was fearful that he would commit a Columbine act at their campus & he was expelled from that college for his disruptive behavior. Public figures make convenient targets for nut jobs. Query: If Loughner had lived in Hollywood would he have chosen a movie star as his victim/target?

BTW II I do not believe that either side in this political debate is "silly or evil." Misguided? Perhaps both sides. But not silly or evil.
 
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Change soon you'all will need to speak latin and learn chinese. Matthew you come from 1 of the highest crime most political corrupt states in this country. I still wonder when your piss ant state will adopt a right to carry law. God forbid they sure need it. This young man may have only gotten off 1 or 2 shots if some trained good carrin folks where there. Take a look at texas and some other states that have concelled laws. Going back to this nut job I sure hope he gets the death sentence. Eye for a eye like some other areas of the world. Years ago I helped a fellow try to get a bill passed for anybody getting the death sentence. Heres simple form before 1 can be put to death his ( her ) organs are harvested for transplant, least these scum of the earth would serve some good. Was told that was too inhumane. B.S. I suspect more nut cases will come out of the wood work as time goes on with the state of the economy and hard working people loosing much of what they have and crap being shoved down our throats by our leaders whom have never worked in any kind of Industry and don't have a company to keep profitable that feeds families.
 
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Here's another crack pot in today's paper

A Colorado man has been accused of threatening to set fire around Democratic Sen. Michael Bennet's office and shoot members of his staff, prompting authorities to step up patrols around the senator's home and office. John Troy Davis, 44, who was arrested Thursday, faces a charge of assault on a federal employee. If convicted, he faces up to 10 years in prison.

Notice he's threatening a Democrat - many of thes voters realize they have been lied to and sold down the river
 
Matthew 10:16 said:
Grief & dismay is of course very important, but we as a nation should also reflect on other concerns as well so we as a nation can attempt, "civilly & respectfully," to effect change which will better our nation and make it more safe.
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David, Your wishes are commendable....and on a personal level... realistic.
But on a societal level, I would contend they are unachievable.

It's fantasy to believe mankind will change after centuries of the weak being overpowered by the strong and both countries and individuals seeking controlling power to dictate their will over others. War and conflict is as much a part of the human experience as life and death. They are part and parcel to who we are as people. For as much as many of us would work to achieve the best that man can be...there will be those who will work equally hard to exhibit the worst of human traits. To say that we can change the dark side of human nature is equivalent to saying that we can, with the stroke of a legislative pen...eradicate all human disease.

Just as the best of intentions will never eradicate mental illness. You may seek to improve how such individuals are identified, diagnosed and treated...but you will never eliminate their existence. As and long as they exist...there will be horrific instances of violence as they play out their misguided actions.

I think we would all like to live in a Utopia where all are safe. Where all dialog is "civil and respectful". Where conflict and death are avoided, war is absent, and everyone lives in eternal peace... But Shangrila was a mythical place. Not an achievable goal. To fail to acknowledge and accept that realization is it's own form of mental dementia.

However, that is NOT to say we should give up trying to improve ourselves, our society and our world. But we have to appreciate that the ultimate goal is one we can never achieve.

Kerry

BTW, Mark...your comments in this thread are some of the best I have read in some time. Accurate and very well articulated.
 
Thank you Kerry for replying & expressing your opinions in a rational, reasoned, respectful & non-inflammatory manner.

You are right. I am a idealistic dreamer. Hopefully that's a good thing. Perhaps I am that voice that brings balance & a different perspective to a controversial subject. Should I now launch into this MLK, Jr. rhetoric: "I have a dream..." :)

I agree. We should not give up trying to improve ourselves, our soceity & our world even if Utopia is not achievable in this life. By imploring others to speak & act civilly & respectfully to one another hopefully I am helping in a very small way by trying to improve ourselves, our society & our world.

Mark is correct. Security was totally lacking in this tragedy. I believe we need to do a better job of identifying potential targets of nut jobs & providing adequate security when appropriate.

BTW I watched Glenn last night, enjoyed his show & agreed with 90% of what he said.
 
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Why should we even need security at any function? Do you remember way back when securety at the drive-in, highschool functions, etc were to either keep you from sneaking in without paying or taking your beer away from at the gate? There was no concern about guns and if you had one in trunk because you just came from hunting rabbits or squirells that afternoon nothing was said except, maybe"how did you do".

This society has become a "I want it now and you owe it to me". If you don't give it to me then I will take it(and may use force to do so). If you don't agree with my self centered ideals then I will do what I can to eliminate you from the equation.

Only real problem I see is lack of parental guidance/presence/involvement through adolecence and up to adult hood. Where were the parents of the Tuscon shooter through all this. He was expelled from a JC/media says he was a high drop out?

It is difficult to recognize signs of mental illness unless you are invovled on a regular basis. You need to know what is normal . For me , the closest I have ever been to normal was the time I spent a week in Bloomington one night.
 
The world has changed since "the good ole days" Snakey in some ways unfortunately not for the better. Global communications & the internet have shrunk our world. Now almost everyone is keenly aware of what the rest of the world is doing. My point is this. The nut jobs out there see & hear about other nut jobs & terrorists all over the world getting momentary "fame & notoriety" due to media coverage of their acts/exploits & dream of becoming famous themselves in some sick & perverted way. So copycat stuff flourishes. I like the way Major League baseball refuses to show nut jobs who run out onto the field on TV. I believe if they showed all of em on TV there would be more of em doin it. :(

I agree that the disintegration of the American family unit has led to a generation of social misfits and law breakers.

WOW Snakey that must've been one heckuva night in Bloomington. :D
 
My idealistic dream for future political discourse in our great nation:

1. Love not hatred
2. Respectful not ridiculing or insulting
3. Kindness not vitriolic or caustic
4. Peaceful not inflammatory or incendiary
5. Civility not rude, discourteous or insensitive
6. Goodness not ugliness or mean spirited
7. Gentleness not vehement, blusterous or agitating
8. Conciliatory not obstinate or obstreperous
9. Unifying not derisive or divisive
10. Forgiveness not vengeful or retaliatory
 
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Dave...in all seriousness...

What have you been drinking???

You do realize your referring to two political parties led by zealots who live and breathe the opportunity to make their opponents look like two headed monsters in the eyes of the public...and who will not lift a finger on any issue unless there is political gain to be had.

I have to admit however, that there was a time in my own life when I shared such positive, idealistic and hope filled dreams...but thankfully...I came to my senses about the same time I learned that I was never going to make minimum wage selling dislodged bicuspids to the Tooth Fairy.
 
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