Why Ford, Chevy or whatever?

Tim M

PRESIDENT, Member # 015
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St. Charles
First Name
Tim
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Mauldin
I've often wondered why there are staunch supporters of a particular brand. I can't say I'm one way or the other with any as I've owned all but a few manufacturers. In my case, now, I really like Ford. Why? Because, as I understand it, they were the only major car manufacturer that didn't take any bailout money. The quality is improving. They are an American car company. And it's what makes my Cobra go fast :D I do notice, however, that most speed shops stock Chevy parts. What's the reason? Just law of averages that there are more chevy hot rodders and more parts are needed by them? Do Chevy's break a lot? I guess my real question is, if you had a million dollar bet on the table to win a race and you were given the choice of a 350 Chevy or a 351 Ford, which would you choose and why? One race, one million dollars and unlimited engine build budget. We'll say it's a perfect world where the cars weigh the same, the track grip is perfect, you cut a perfect light, everything, perfect. Which is it?
 
Contrary to popular belief I don't really have anything against Fords. It's just real fun teasing you. I'm a Chevy guy, but I've always loved the Cobra. I think ultimately it costs less to build a Chevy engine and there are more variety of parts available. I know a lot of the circle dirt track guys build Chevy, but there are always dodge and Ford there as well. You're correct that of the big three, Ford was the only one to not take a bail out and now GM is trying to pay back the money as fast as our goverment will allow so they can get out from under the goverment restrictions. I wish them all luck because we need them independant and thriving. Personally I'd take the Chevy 350 in the LS series and call it good. I still might do the engine swap. It would be cool with the SC!
 
So, one vote for the Chevy 350.

You touched on what I'm thinking, that it's cost. So, does it cost more to produce 600 Chevy horsepower or 600 Ford horsepower?
 
I could write an Epistle on this question...

First we are comparing the 350 Chevy to the Ford 351W (Windsor)....not the 351 Cleveland.

The short version is that beginning with the 265...the small block Chevy has been in continuous production since 1955 with the 350 introduced in 1967 vs. the small block 221 Ford in 1962 and the 351 Ford which was introduced in 1969. Although many consider the 351W to be a member of the 221/260/289/302 small block Ford family...it is actually a new heavily upgraded design with taller block, bigger main journals and different firing order.

One reason that the small block Chevy has ruled as THE high performance engine for so long is that GM made continuous improvements to the same basic design where MANY new parts would interchange with older blocks. Ford, by contrast, would introduce a new engine series every few years often with limited or no interchangeability. Chevy seemed to be very conscious about insuring back-wards interchangeability. Ford did not. If they felt a new design was better... they introduced it... regardless if it created interchangeability issues. Sometimes the new designs were better. Sometimes they were not. But it resulted in a much larger inventory of parts that was needed to cover all the variations over the years. BY contrast a much smaller inventory of parts could cover many years of Chevy production. This appealed to the cost control efforts of aftermarket manufactures and usually when a new part was produced by an aftermarket company the small block Chevy applications would be the first to hit the market. Ford applications would come much later...if at all. This dramatically affected the ability of Ford builders to be competitive with Chevy builders at the track.

As aftermarket manufactures came on the scene it was a no brainer as to what products they should stock and could sell as a fairly limited inventory could cover a vast number of small block Chevy applications. Not so with Ford until later years when the small block Ford became so popular with Mustang owners. Today that gap is closing as Ford has made tremendous strides in matching small block Chevy popularity.

However, there are some basic characteristics of the Ford that are less or more desirable than the small block Chevy.

Chevy has five cylinder bolt/studs around each cylinder. The Ford 351 has four. This results in better cylinder head gasket compression on the Chevy allowing fewer blown head gasket problems all else being the same.

The 351W Ford is notorious for intake gasket leaks into coolant passages near the intake ports. Chevy intakes do not have this same level of gasket failure.

In Ford's defense they use a better quality cast iron in their blocks. It tends to be harder and wears better. The early 351 blocks in particular are some of the best Ford has made. GM used a softer grade of cast iron in their production small block Chevy blocks and only used higher quality cast iron in the Chevy racing blocks. (Note that the higher quality cast iron was also used in Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac production blocks...but not Chevy.)

Ford 351 Blocks also tend to have thicker cylinder walls and better block rigidity at a penalty of increased weight. For many years Ford had better quality, cleaner castings than Chevy.

Ford also tends to use better nodular iron crankshafts than the cast Chevy cranks. The cast Ford cranks are very durable and wear resistant. However Chevy used forged cranks in many high performance production applications. Ford generally stuck with high quality cast cranks instead.

One of the primary reasons Chevy had an edge was that the small block cylinder heads have always flowed very well in stock or nearly stock form. By contrast the Ford 351 head had an exhaust restriction that did not allow them to flow as well as a comparable Chey head. However, in recent years Ford and other aftermarket companies have offered heads easily the equal and often superior to the best small block Chevy heads.

Bottom line...if I had to choose one... it would be a small block Chevy. The selection of aftermarket racing parts is still greater than Ford and any shortcoming the Chevy might have can be overcome with an aftermarket part. The public domain of engine developement information on the small block Chevy remains greater. The five stud cylinder design is superior. Parts cost is less than Ford. There is no V8 engine you can build or rebuild cheaper than a 350 small block Chevy. Ford is close on the 302....but a 351 will generally cost you more to build than a 350.

Both are excellent engines....and I own both...and I own more 351W powered vehicles than any other. However if I were selecting between the two to build a cost effective, most reliable, best performing racing or high performance street engine it would be the Chevy. Just NOT in a Cobra.

But as far as buying a NEW car or truck...It will be a Ford. I will not support any vehicle brand built by a government controlled car company.

The nice thing about building a 350 "Chevy"...is that you could do so using nothing but aftermarket parts. Not a single item from GM...:)

Just my $.02....

Kerry
 
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Awesome Kerry. Thanks, what I was looking for and explains why there are more hot rodders using Chevy's. I didn't mention Mopar, any advantages they have over either manufacturer (ford or chevy) with their engines?

Ok, so now, what about the modular engine by Ford, will it have the same backwards engineering (where new parts will fit older engines) that Chevy seems to have?
 
Current cars, fit and finish. Chevy and dodge just have not stayed on top of things in my opinion. And I won't consider a foriegn car unless it is European where there is not really an american equal (even if they do have a plant here, profits still go back overseas) so I am not including them in my reasoning. Just the way I was raised.

I drove my moms brand new Equinox and my Dad's brand new Colorado. Fit and finish of the interor parts are horrible, no gaps align, and very poor quality in my opinion (thin wall plastics), and I just finished up driving my 1995 escort wagon for 5 years, and was dissapointed with the finish and quality of a new car! (My brothers 2006 Silverado is not that way). I also had a 2009 Dodge 1500 Quad cab 4X4 as a rental last week when my F-150 was in the shop (got rearended). The controls for the radio were the same controls as our old body style avenger had. Things were just not updated. And I'm a short guy, the raido was out of reach compared to the Ford and Chebby.

I was told by an experinced mech. years ago, my wifes father, that all of the big three should always run to 200K plus, if maintained correctly.

(By the way my, my entire family is GM, and my inlaws are Dodge) At least one of us has seen the light.
 
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I like the hemi head design with intake valves opposite exhaust, but they are generally bigger, like the overhead cam designs on the Ford modulars. This makes a much larger engine and will not fit in a lot of cases, like mine.
 
Kerry makes the case quite simply...cost factor.
That is changing as he indicates with more aftermarket availability for the Blue Ovals.
The latest issue of Hot Rod has a good article on builds for the small block chebbys vs fomoco.
Don't have the mag with me as I loaned it to my BowTie son-in-law so he could see that they were able to pull more hp and torque from the BlueOvals in almost all instances.
I fell in love with Ford back in the '60s.
I had the privelage of owning a '69 MachI with the 428 SCJ dragpac car which I ran on the strip for two years. It was under rated as were most cars in that era for insurance reasons. I also most recently had an '03 MachI with the 4.6 32valve mod motor. It was so retro to the '69 I could not pass up getting it.
Two years ago when I built my present 351W for the Cobra I also helped a good friend build a 383 stroker for his '56 Vette. Cost was pretty even. Don't know about the hp/tq but we both agree they are pretty equal. Hard to really tell as his Vette is heavier and has a higher rear gear .
What really matters is what an individual is satisfied with.
I also like to rub it in on the Bowtie guys.
I was at two different drag strips this summer on the Hot Rod Power Tour and never saw better than a 14.4 from the new generation SS Camero. And they were not going up in smoke off the line. I turned a 14.3 with my 305hp mod motor in the '03 Mach I.
 
Ok, so now, what about the modular engine by Ford, will it have the same back-wards engineering (where new parts will fit older engines) that Chevy seems to have?

I think the modular engines have been excellent for interchangeability so far... however the advent of computer controls and fly by wire technology will put many stumbling blocks in the way of shade tree mechanics trying to re-engineer or update older engines.

Having said that....you can successfully install two valve, four valve or three valve modular heads and intake manifolds from 2000-2009 Ford engines on older 1993 Lincoln Teksid aluminum blocks or 1992 Crown Vic cast iron blocks. So far the ability to switch parts is surprisingly good considering the modular is now 17 years old. Even the front wheel drive Continental modular has good interchangeability with the RWD modular engines.

However, I doubt that any engine will approach the record of the small block Chevy. Technology is changing much more rapidly now. The fact that the modular has reached 17 years is in itself surprising.

There is a LOT to like with the modular Fords. When a stock 12 to 17 year old aluminum Lincoln Teksid bare block comes with six bolt cross bolted mains and can handle 1500 hp unmodified....that gets my attention. A stock forged steel Mustang crank that can handle 800 HP with standard preparation...that gets my attention. A production 4 valve Lincoln Navigator cylinder head with minor cleanup that outflows the best professionally prepared small block Chevy cylinder head...that gets my attention.

Yet....the modulars also have some shortcomings for racing. Pressed powder technology connecting rods and hyper-eutectic pistons are fine for street engines but have to be replaced for serious output. Also the blocks are limited for increased displacement.

But for me.... they make a lot of sense for an impressive street Cobra.

Kerry
 
I need to stop..think...add to..before hitting send.
There is an awful lot of chrome availabel for the small block Chebbies...the reason for this is:
IF IT DON'T GO CHROME IT

By the way, I do have a sb 350 in my t-bucket I bought in Jan of this year....just can't bring my self to getting it running. It quit the day after I got it home. Thinking about putting in my 347 stroker with a C-6.
 
true hard to beat a small block chevy and the price for parts- I just wish if you have a ford you put a ford in it - chevy you put a chevy in it - sad that 80% of street rods have a chevy in them - when i was considering a cobra I almost bought 1 on ebay that had a chevy in it - I would have bought it and sold the 454 and gone back with a ford of some sort. I f you have noticed on ebay a cobra with a chevy in it won't bring much. Thats like a corvette with a amc power plant. You ever notice what rear axle they all use. The 9 inch ford close to bullet proof and a couple aftermarket companies make a drop in for 9 inch ford that has the pinion raised like a 12 bolt chevy to reduce drag. The 9 inch ford is got to be the simplest to set up a new ring and pinion also.
 
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true hard to beat a small block chevy and the price for parts- I just wish if you have a ford you put a ford in it - chevy you put a chevy in it - sad that 80% of street rods have a chevy in them - when i was considering a cobra I almost bought 1 on ebay that had a chevy in it - I would have bought it and sold the 454 and gone back with a ford of some sort. I f you have noticed on ebay a cobra with a chevy in it won't bring much. Thats like a corvette with a amc power plant. You ever notice what rear axle they all use. The 9 inch ford close to bullet proof and a couple aftermarket companies make a drop in for 9 inch ford that has the pinion raised like a 12 bolt chevy to reduce drag. The 9 inch ford is got to be the simplest to set up a new ring and pinion also.

Love this FUN topic instead of the serious/debate political stuff that causes us to fight & argue. :eek::cool: Love your thoughts MikeyW. I bought my Cobra with a Ford in it cause I didn't want a chevy in a Ford & for resale reasons if I ever decide to sell. I will tell you this I LOVE my 351W. It roars & goes faster than any chevy I've ever owned. :D Not saying that a chevy isn't out there that can go faster than my 351W, but I loved it when I get on it & it roars. nothing like that sound. Everytime I hear it I grin. :D
 
So, no Mopar lovers out there? :rolleyes: Mike, I have noticed the Chevy powered Cobra's seem to stay out there longer. Growing up, Dad always bought Fords, don't really know why (he owns a Chevy now). My first car was a Ford, however, I've had great Chevy's, Dodge, Saturn, and Mazda vehicles. All have had issues with fitment and squeaky/rattling plastic parts inside the vehicle. I really think the plastic parts use is out of hand, but I'm sure it's due to cost. Remember cars with metal padded dashes? Don't remember hearing those rattle much.

It seems to me all engines operate under the same principles. One may have better crankshaft designs, oiling/cooling designs or it may breathe better. But, in the end and has been explained well above, you can make an engine, any engine, what you want it to be. So, why be partial to one or the other? Wierd.
 
Hot Rod mag test chevy vs ford

L76 327 Shelby 289
356hp @ 6100(rated 365 hp) 302hp @ 5800(rated 306 hp)
369lb/ft @ 4100 310 lb @ 4600

'69 DZ 302 '69 Boss 302
356 hp @ 6700(rated 290 hp) 372 hp @ 68009(rated 290 hp)
333 lb/ft @ 4400 325 lb/ft @ 4200

'70 LT-1 350ci '70 Cobra jet 351ci
353 hp @ 5600(rated 370hp) 365 hp @ 5800(rated 300hp)
392 lb/ft @ 4100 379 lb/ft @ 3800

'71 LT-1 350ci '71 Boss 351
359 hp @ 5900(rated 330ph 383 hp @ 6100(rated 330 hp)
376 lb/ft @ 4100 391 lb/ft @ 4000


For more info on each set up see page 75 in Jan 2010 HotRod Mag
 
true hard to beat a small block chevy and the price for parts- I just wish if you have a ford you put a ford in it - chevy you put a chevy in it - sad that 80% of street rods have a chevy in them - when i was considering a cobra I almost bought 1 on ebay that had a chevy in it - I would have bought it and sold the 454 and gone back with a ford of some sort. I f you have noticed on ebay a cobra with a chevy in it won't bring much. Thats like a corvette with a amc power plant. You ever notice what rear axle they all use. The 9 inch ford close to bullet proof and a couple aftermarket companies make a drop in for 9 inch ford that has the pinion raised like a 12 bolt chevy to reduce drag. The 9 inch ford is got to be the simplest to set up a new ring and pinion also.

I agree with you in part about keeping the power plant to the make of the car, but the Factory Five doesn't come with a power plant for that reason. It's not a real Cobra. I wouldn't even consider putting a Chevy in an original cobra. Truth be told, I know there are Chrysler components in the FFR as well. I think some of the manufacturers use as many existing components that are out there to avoid custom parts. I just think these cars are cool and you can put anything in them you want or like. That's one of the things I really like about them. Of course I also really liked an old vette that a guy had rebuilt from the frame up. Everything not seen from the outside with the exception of the rims "looked" stock, but underneath it was all modern coil overs and sway bars and a blown LS engine. In my mind the best of both worlds.
 
My attitude on this car is just that Dan, that it is a replica. Guess your and my definition of replica differ, but that's ok. If someone asks me what kind of car it is, I tell them it's a replica of a '65 AC Cobra. The bewildered look on their face tells me they haven't a clue what that even is. I begin to tell them the story, and about halfway through, they are bored so I shut up. :D I think in MOST cases if you have one of these cars, it doesn't matter what engine, what interior or what color paint is on them, as long as it all goes together, that's what people like. I'm sure no where in the history of the cobra will you find one that is purple, has a wood dash, a 460/588, coil over shocks etc... so, build it like you want it. As long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters. Besides, once the hood is closed, no one knows what it is.

I guess my original intent with this thread was to find out if you can achieve the same horsepower, same torque, and same reliability with any engine make, why talk bad about a particular brand as long as it's American?
 
I'll agree with your last comment. I think if you own one of these cars, you're going to put the time in on it and keep it in good shape. Any make of engine will supply enough power for one of these 2200 lbs missles. Just what do you comfortable with? I totally understand people putting Ford powerplants in the car, but I see the reasoninig behind other options too. I think they are all cool. I constantly find things I like about other cars and want to incorporate in my car..... except a big block;) :D

It's all good.
 
why the chebies in old fords

simple the old chebies all rusted out - and so many so thats why the chebie motors migrated to all others, kinda like they way flies move from: 1 pile to another :eek::eek:
 
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