Mike - I saw this on Lotus Talk ......

S

Steve Fehr

Member # 017
GCC Member
Location
Ellisville
First Name
Steve
Last Name
Fehr
and thought of you. :D

Steve

....

About 2-3 years ago I was big into AutoX. I would go out and have a blast. Lately for the last year I've been tracking my car at HPDEs instead.

I recently attended an AutoX event again...

GOOD GOD how fricken boring!!!! I can't believe how I used to enjoy my AutoX days. I was there ALL DAY nearly 7 hours to get 4 one minute runs.

Yes, running the course is fun but DAMN 7 hours for 4 minutes of cumulative driving is pathetic. I'd drive for 1 min then sit on my a$$ for 2+ hours waiting to run again. Then stand out on the course working for 2-3 hours. Just NOT worth it.
 
Probably worth posting the links, because some of the responses there seem to provide both sides of the discussion very well:

The original quote is from:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/well-i-ruined-autox-125107/

Another earlier thread on the same topic:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f99/your-local-autocross-club-fun-boring-117919/

Best comment supporting autocross:
There are 2 ways autocross is superior to track days though:

1. It is an actual race

2. really the only venue to safely explore the cars ability 100% and beyond

If you are a very competitive person, these 2 items keep you going. I know people that drive 1500miles for 2 min of driving.


Imagine an olympic athlete. He may train his whole life for a 8 second sprint or 1.5 second lift.
Click to expand...


Autocross is 6 runs of 50 seconds of panic maneuvers around 60 MPH. When done correctly, it pushes the driver and the car to the limits of ability, cornering, acceleration, and braking. There is no warmup, you line up, run, and that is the time. It provides enough safety margin that the driver can screw up without injury or damage to the vehicle. A complete novice can participate without any concern.
It costs $25-45, and to keep the costs low, everyone works as long as it takes for everyone else to participate.

Track Days, HPDE/PDX, Time Trial, Road Racing, all involve much longer durations of participation and higher speeds, but do not push the driver or the car to their limit for the full duration of participation, and probably not 5 honest minutes of at-the-limit for either the car or the driver. Higher speeds involve more careful and smooth maneuvering. Wheel-to-wheel racing would also involve strategy, stretching out a lead, backing off when a lead is sufficient, and just making sure to finish in front of another car without risking breaking or wrecking. Several of these involve warmup and cool down laps. There is less safety margin for screwing up and much higher chance of injury or damaging the vehicle. There is a certain level of expertise required and these events are less open to novices.
It costs $150-350+. To keep participation time high, there are paid and/or volunteer track workers.

There are worse alternatives:

Drag Racing Test and Tune:
$25+ for five or six 15 second runs. Those of you with faster cars pay significantly more per second of participation.
Many more hours waiting in the staging lanes.

Watching NASCAR, F1, Indy, Cart, Lemans, etc.
Hundreds of dollars to get in, and they don;t let you drive at all.
 
Mike:

I wasn't dissing the skills required to run AutoX. They are different than those for a road course.

What I personally can't get my head around, and why I agreed with the guy whose post I copied, is the combination of huge amounts of inaction along with the idea of having to "work" to save a few bucks.

I can't understand somebody training for four years for a minute on a bobsled either. Totally incomprehensible to me.

I want to drive, have a chance to rest and then drive again. I don't know what AutoX takes out of you physically, but I can tell you that after 20 to 30 minutes of road course work it starts to wear on you. My appreciation for the "athletic" component of driving in circles for 500 miles at 175 mph increased dramatically after I start tracking my car.

Like I said, both have plusses and minuses. For me AutoX just doesn't pass muster.

Steve
 
Mike, saying one never crashes in an Autocross is like someone saying I'll never fall in to a sink hole at a golf course - it happens.....examples:

Poor course design I assume since innocent parked cars got taken out
SCCA_OR2_wreck_2_zps0ae8fcc9.png


Coincidence that another poor course design included a nearby curb?
chevy_corvette_autocross_crash_zpsaf41ac6c.png


Get this under a Roadster, and you could take out an oil line, break fiberglass etc....
mustangautox_zpse7b81c99.png


Something you will NOT see at a road course
11-o-1969-chevrolet-c10front-autocross_zps8192d9a9.png


A full account story of an AutoX crash - http://96sl2m.www9.50megs.com/September 10 autocross.htm

Even good drivers mess up - http://blogs.hotrod.com/spectre-car...t-goodguys-autocross-16791.html#axzz2NYHi15kH

Here's a documentary on Autox - http://vimeo.com/12067348

Now, road course isn't safe either - http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f223/crash-mid-ohio-scca-t2-nissan-61500/

The difference is this, speed.(PERIOD) I like, I love it, I want some more of it as Tim McGraw would say. I don't like using my brakes (follow me on a cruise sometime and see), so AutoX isn't my cup of tea. As for it being a timed event, I race against myself and people I know all the time. Nothing stops us from placing a friendly wager on the line, or buying a $5 trophy to take home if one runs faster than another. Let's just agree to disagree and you come on out to RunNGun to see where you're at as a driver. It's a timed racing event, includes road course, drag strip and autox times. http://www.runngun.us :D
 
While working with my fellow Chump Car drivers last weekend, they showed me a picture of one of the guy's car that had driven over a metal stanchion at the Family Arena and catapulted about 20 feet. It wasn't pretty.

Steve
 
Just making sure to point out, this is not Mike, this is the driver who races against Mike.

OK, on the subject of safety and accidents...
If you declare a ship is unsinkable, some bright captain will go out and ram icebergs repeatedly just to make sure to prove the ship can be sunk.
With autocross, there is a reasonable expectation that a driver can push the car up to and over its limit, and find out just where that line is. And because the speed is supposed to be around or below 60 MPH, and it takes place in the middle of a parking lot with no objects or persons in the way, after the car finishes spinning or sliding, the car has not hit anything and the only injury to the driver is his pride. Things can go wrong, but considering there are ~150 participants in each event, 50+ events every weekend, for the warmer months of the year, any accidents should be reasonably rare and nowhere near the pucker factor as turn 7 on Gateway's roval.


Money seems to be the thing that everyone overlooks in this.

Autocross is 10-12 events in a season. $35 per event. ~$400-450 in entry fees per year.
One set of tires: $800-1200 for me, more for bigger cars. A set of tires lasts a season (60 runs / heat cycles).
Maybe $1,500 for a year.

Road course events are significantly more expensive. PDX is something like $175-250. I am lead to believe that entry in a club racing event is $250+. Ten events a year would easily run $2,000+.
Road racing tires are around the same price as autocross tires. They aren't as soft, but I am reading that they last 3-4 race weekends, or 12-16 heat cycles. That could easily get up over $3,000 for me.
Maybe $5,000+ for a year.
My street tires are all season radials, not high speed rated, many years old, and hard as a rock.
A set of summer street tires would be $800+, may or may not last 3-4 road race weekends, and would not provide the same lap times or cornering speeds.

If you have more money to spend than time to stand around, road course events is the way to go. Those of us on tighter budgets, make the best of autocross.
 
Hey hold on a minute...I haven't responded yet!

I have to agree with much of what Bill said. The 2 aspects of AX that really attracts me is the high level of competition and driving the car at it's limit. The fact that I can do this all locally, with a far lower risk level, and at a much lower cost is a definate plus.

I remember watching one of Tim's videos a couple of years ago as he followed what looked like a mini van around a course at maybe 60% of his car's capabilities. I remember thinking "how boring that looks to be". I do get the thrill of the higher speeds, but remember that I spent every day at work in an office that is moving at 500-600 mph so it is not the same thrill for me that someone that sits at a desk might get.

Now for the cost:
1. Tow vehicle fuel : 200-250 (trips to indy/hallet)
2. Avg entry 250
3. Track wear 200 (slicks/brakes/rotors/gas)
4. 2 night hotel 200
Total $800-900 per event x 8 events per year = $6,400

AX cost:
1. Tow vehicle: 10
2. Avg entry 35
3. Track wear 50 (slicks/brakes/rotors)
4. Hotel 0
Total $95 per event x 8 events per year = $760 + $80 SCCA annual membership

Notice a season of competition costs about the same as one weekend of following slower cars around a track with no competition. To be fair I must disclose that I have hauled my car to Nashville and Blyhteville to compete at a national level event and the expense was much higher than a local event.

Risk: While the risk is not zero for AX, it is much lower.

I do intend to get into some track days, but they will be limited. I only have so much time and money to spend on this hobby. Who knows though, following minivans around a road course might just become my next passion in life.
 
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.......following minivans around a road course might just become my next passion in life.

Ouch.

Tim: You must have some video to rebut this.

Steve
 
Steve Fehr said:
.......following minivans around a road course might just become my next passion in life.

Ouch.

Tim: You must have some video to rebut this.

Steve
Click to expand...

Oh come on....that there was funny!

Actually I think it was a Mazda 3, but from the back it looked like a minivan.
 
The video he speaks of was an instructor and one of my early runs at Putnam prior to the Porsche HPDE event. It was a VW something or another, can't remember, but the race line is the race line no matter what you drive. But, yes, I did follow him several laps. I think it was this video, following a VW (the instructor) from 2010. And as you can see, he wasn't getting a point by from the Porsche, and then later, I let another instructor in a Porsche in front of me. Was just trying to learn, but yeah, followed a minivan around.

[youtube]aJqh_cZ2ByE[/youtube]

I have since increased my lap times by almost 7 seconds from 2010 at Putnam. Which is part of my point....I can drive and learn the track in a non competitive environment rather than just dodge the cones(I know, much harder than that). I've learned alot about my car - it's acceleration characteristics, braking, tires, suspension etc..... that I can literally apply to the street. Expense - I spend about a grand for a weekend that I do 4 times a year. My tires last me for 5 events. Again, more expensive, but I like it better. I've tried AX a few times, just don't like it. Bill and Mike - as far as I know, neither of you have at least tried a road course, so how do you know so much about it if you've never been?

I like Steve simply refuse to pay money to race, and have to work the rest of the day standing at a corner resetting cones. How many of you are trained at CPR and rescue should an accident happen? (mike, not speaking about you, I'm sure you are, and I don't know Bill). To wrap this up, at least from me, there are two things basically that keep me from Autocross - 1) having to work the track 2) My car is simply not setup for Autocross and I don't want to embarrass myself anymore :p :D
 
Steve Fehr said:
Mike:

I'm confused. That was a link to Putnam. It didn't look like autocross to me.

Tim:

That guy was booking. I timed one lap and he ran a 1:11.

Steve
Click to expand...

Steve it was supposed to be an apples to apples comparison on the same track.

Now for comparison here is one of my laps with a similar level of aggression. Later in the day I was over 2 seconds faster than this lap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHtx7eurZYU&list=UUd16s9zwPBUCB8EpK7OAzJA&index=8

If you call this boring you may want to check for a pulse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etR25Bb7H4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt3nHuAQkE
 
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I liked this quote from the Lotus forum:

"Big-track experience does not always teach folks how to win at autocross. I remember one guy who held a track record at Blackhawk and couldn't get the hang of autocross because "it all happens too fast". "

Steve have you seen Fred Zust in his Lotus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsjL3RwtPPM
 
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That Putnam video at 1:10 lap - is record territory. That's a whole nother level. I can appreciate AX, but it's not for me. I like road racing for all the reasons the others have mentioned. Right now, I'm learning that smooth is fast. That's a technique that I will be focusing on.

But, Tim is right. You two must register for Run N Gun. There's nothing else like it. Four events. More track time than you can possibly handle. Have some success in your class, and you'll probably get a trophy.
 
I am road racer through and through,but everyone that hasn't done a AX needs to do it at least once.You will learn more about the handling of your car and your ability to drive it in an afternoon of AX than you will in a year of track time.
The way I think about it is,AX crams everything that you do on a track in a very short format, its intense with no time to think,but to go on pure instinct and reactions alone,which is going to improve your road course abilities especially if you find yourself in a bad situation and need those instincts to kick in.Same for the street.
Road course albeit much faster you have so much time to setup for the next turn or think about your next move.
As far as the expense for an afternoon of Ax,I believe there are a few on this thread that have spent more on breakfast at the pancake house,so no excuses!:D
So to wrap it up don't discount the AX,use it as a tool to improve those skills that we all need to have whether on the street or the track.
 
itzdapig said:
....So to wrap it up don't discount the AX,use it as a tool to improve those skills that we all need to have whether on the street or the track.
Click to expand...

I'd love to. But I'm not going to "work" the event. In the civil war you could pay $300 to avoid being conscripted. How much could it possiblty cost to get someone to be a corner worker for me.

Steve
 
Steve there was a program last year that would allow you to pay some young kidds to work for you. I will ask around.

One thing you are not understanding is that standing on course and watching other drivers lines, braking points, and mistakes is what helps make you faster. I really like it when I work 1st and then drive as I can try the lines I saw the faster drivers try.
 
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