Rifle Scopes

[Tim M]

Deer hunted this past weekend and shot my Uncle's 7mm Mag that he gave me for the first time. I'm not real happy with the Scope, a Leupold Vari-x-III 2.5 x 8. I had trouble at full magnification getting a full view in the scope as well as getting enough light in early morning or late evening situations. Any suggestions for a good quality scope that is easy on the eyes at full magnification and in low light conditions?

 

[33ratride]

Tim, Luepold is a good scope. Your light coming in the scope is controled by how big the opening in the front lens 32mm, 40mm or 50mm the bigger the better. Thats the easy answer to your question, there are different lens coating that bring in light better but Luepold is one of the better scopes for that. You do know the more magnification you use the narrower the feild of vision you have. How much do you want to spend? Your a little late to change for this deer season. I.m sure Kerry will have some good advice on this subject.

Good luck this year and Be Safe.

Rick

 

[itzdapig]

Kerry turned me onto the Vortex line,awesome glass and cheaper than any of the big names.

 

[mmarshall]

When I bought a scope for my AR15 I compared a Leupold with a Simmons. In the same price range I compared a 4x24 Simmons (retail to retail) with a 3x9 Leupold. The Simmons has the same issue with eye relief at 24 power that the Leupold did at 9 power. But the Simmons reduced to 9 power was much clearer than the Leupold and on par with it at around 18-20 power. The Leupold at 9 power is slightly better than the Simmons is at 24 power. I bought the 4x24 Simmons on clearance for about $100 less than the Leupold and love it. I also has target turrets so adjustments are a snap.

Tasco makes a nice 6x40 scope that is incredible for light gathering.

Let me know if you want to borrow my AR to try before you buy. It is a real tack driver and at 24 power you can see your heartbeat move the point of impact on the target.

 

[Kerry & Kathy]

First...in low light... most common hunting scopes will provide the best light gathering at about 6.5 to 7 power. Higher power... and the available light to the eye is wasted. This is a mechanical function of the relationship between the scopes objective lens diameter and the size of the human eye's iris.

Most adult eyes will have an iris opening of about 6mm. A little more for younger individuals. To determine what power is "Ideal" for light transmission you divide the objective lens diameter by the diameter of the eye's iris.

A 40 mm objective lens would then provide a 6mm iris with maximum light at 6.66 power....rounded to 7X. If your scope is set at 9X the rear lens of the scope is only passing sufficient light to illuminate a 4.4mm iris...yet the iris can accept 6mm of light. This is why the scope seems darker at higher power at dusk or dawn. Conversely ...if you set your 40mm scope to 4X...now the scope is providing a 10mm diameter of light to the eye...but the eye can only accept 6mm due to the size limitation of the iris...so the eye cannot take advantage of the added transferred light at the lower power.

At dawn and dusk you will always find my 40mm hunting scopes set to 7 power and smaller 32mm scopes set at a little over 5 power for the reasons above.

But this mechanical limitation has been slightly offset in recent years due to the development of lens coatings that have improved the light gathering of newer scopes.

As far as what scopes to consider....I have owned well over 60 scopes of just about every brand out there under $1,000.

My personal opinion is that on average...you need to spend as much for your optics as you do for your rifle.

My absolute best scopes for the money have been Vortex Viper or HS Series in the $400-$700 range. Some of their discontinued models like the 2-7x Viper Keith has can be found for as little as $200 and they are worth every penny. They use Japanese lenses that are difficult to beat without spending north of $1500. And they have the absolute best warranty in the business. Even their low end models made in the Philippines are not bad.

I am not a Leopold fan. At least on models below $1,000. You are paying for a name. However some of the US made Revolution Redfields (now owned by Leopold) are good scopes for minimal cost.

I would steer clear of Tasco. When they were made in Japan they offered good glass for the money. Now they are made in China and it shows. If you can find an older Tasco made in Japan..that is cheap...jump on it.

I am also not a fan of Simmons or Millet. Most are Chinese glass. I have had too many reliability issues with both...and their warranty / customer service is poor. The higher end models are Philippine glass but are still inferior to Japanese or German lenses and better values can be found for the same money.

Watch for the newer high end Grand Slam and Super Slam Weaver scopes as they are Japanese lenses and reasonably priced. Steer clear of the Weaver Kaspa scopes.

If you can find any discontinued TR1 or TR2 Nitrex scopes made by Weaver...they also have Japanese glass and some discontinued models can be found through Natchez Shooter supply for a third of their original retail. The TR1 and TR2 models are the same scope as the Weaver Super Slam and Grand Slam. I have bought a number of the Nitrex scopes for less than $150 that originally sold for $350-$500. Both Nitrex and Weaver have unconditional lifetime warranties.

Nikon makes good scopes in their Monarch series or M-.308 and M-.223 series. Their other cheaper models are just so-so but better than Simmons or Millet and their warranty is better.

Bushnell makes good scopes in their Legend, Ultra and 6500 series. Their low end Trophy is marginal and the Banner line is junk.

Another good scope is the Super Sniper series from SWFA. All Japaneses glass and all are excellent.

Top of the line glass like NightForce and Zeiss are usually out of the price range of most people with glass costing $1500-$2500. However Zeiss does made a Conquest line of scopes with few frills in the $400 range that are solid scopes.

For Deer hunting in Missouri you don't need or want any power over 10X. A 2-7x 32mm works well for medium range rounds like the 30-30, 7.62x39 or 6.8 SPC. For rounds like the .270 or 30-06 a 3-9x 40mm or 3-10x 45mm is sufficient. But the more magnification you have above 7X...the more restricted light becomes before reaching your eye.

If your going to shoot long range..paper, steel...or prairie dogs in daylight...then a higher power is justified.
15x to about 700 yds
20-24x for 1000-1200 yds.

Rick is right...a larger objective lens diameter...40mm...45mm...or 50mm will collect more light. A large objective lens is desirable in low light conditions. A 50mm for example will allow a little over 8 power before light limitation becomes an issue as described above. But keep in mind too that the larger the objective lens...the more weight you add to your rifle and the higher the scope must be mounted above the bore...making a solid and consistent cheek weld difficult.

My personal opinion is that you don't need an objective lens larger than 40mm for hunting Deer in Missouri. Even early morning and late evening... if you can't see clearly enough with a 40mm objective lens...then it's too dark to be shooting.

Also...I do NOT subscribe to illuminated reticules for hunting. Most tend to bloom and wash out the image and just add weight and one more feature than can fail. They are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in 99% of most hunting opportunities.

I am also not a proponent of ballistic reticles for most centerfire cartridges at the distances you are most likely to shoot a deer. They add complexity to the reticule and slow your ability to make a quick and accurate shot.

For most centerfire rifles you will have an effective range well in excess of 350 yds. Yet 99% of shots on Deer will be 100 yds or less. I have killed over 40 Bucks in my life and my longest kill was only 253 yds. What I recommend is a 200 yd Zero for most rifles. This means your bullet...with some variation...will be about 1.75" high at 100 yds...zeroed at 200 yds and about 3.5" low at 300 yds.

This allows you to shoot point of aim and not worry about bullet drop or trajectory. Yet your bullet will remain inside a 5" circle from 25-300 yds. Well within the 8" kill zone of the average deer. It is one less thing to worry about and allows for a quick, well placed shot when the opportunity to shoot is often limited.

My dad hunted with a .35 REM lever action for years and missed a dozen deer because he was trying to apply Kentucky windage to every shot past 50 yds. He was constantly shooting high or low. I gave him a .270 Win Bolt action with a 3-9x scope zeroed for 200 yds and told him to just aim where he wanted to hit the deer. The first year he killed a nice buck at 175 yds. A doe the following year at close range and another nice buck at 125 yds the third year. He never fired more than one round at each deer. There is a lesson to be learned here...

I did not intend to write an Epistle when I started this...but hopefully there is some useful information here.

Kerry

 

[Richgrsc]

Kerry, love your wisdom on these subject. Learn something every time.

 

[Tim M]

Thanks for all the info. The scope that I have, once I unzoomed it, the field of view, or eye relief, was fine. However, I found it was difficult to identify the deer even at full zoom (8x) at that range. After looking at the deer for some time, I was finally able to determine it was a spike (about 6" long). Hunting in the WMA, the rule was you had to take a doe first, so good thing I identified the deer first. So, sounds like I need to go look at a few before next season, and live with this one, since it's right on at the moment, this season.

Another question, windage and elevation adjustments - friction or click style? What about length of scope, does that determine the power of the scope (zoom capability)? Sorry if I'm not using the right terminology.

 

[mmarshall]

Correction! I was confusing the cheaper 4x12 I have on a 22lr with my AR scope. The scope on my AR is an older Japanese made Tasco World Class Plus 6x24x50mm. They are considered some of the best scopes Tasco ever made, but still not the quality that Kerry was talking about of something that is $1000 more.

Here is a used one for $200: http://bozeman.craigslist.org/spo/4141292728.html



Tim if you want to try mine on your rifle just come get it. With the target turrets I can zero it again in about 5 rounds so no problem there.

A pic of my AR:

 

[Kerry & Kathy]

The World Class Tasco's are great scopes. I have owned several and still have at least one. All they lack is the newer coating technology and 30mm tubes.

Tim, It is VERY bad practice to scan with a scope.... as you are sweeping things you don't want to shoot with the muzzle of your gun. Always use a set of good binoculars to identify your target. Once identified...THEN use your scope.

As far as scope adjustments...I can't stand friction turrets. Too easy to bump your adjustment off. I also don't want to have to look at the adjustment I am making to determine the graduations. I want to FEEL it so that I can make adjustments while still keeping my cheek on the stock. I much prefer solid well defined clicks. Which brings up another issue. MOA or Mil adjustments...

If your using a standard Duplex reticle either can be used... with MOA being more common. Just try to get a 1/8th MOA click instead of a 1/4 MOA if you can. Makes for a more precise adjustment. However if you are using a Mil Dot reticle...especially at long distance...use only a scope with .1 Mil graduations. Don't mix a mil dot reticle with MOA adjustments. MUCH harder to use.

Higher magnification scopes require longer scope tubes but that tube length can be reduced somewhat with a tube diameter larger than 1".
30mm is the most common but the military also uses 34 mm tubes.

I don't buy any scopes anymore that are 1" tubes.

On long distance rifles a larger tube also allows a greater range of elevation adjustment to be able to compensate for bullet drop at longer range. Most scopes will need a minimum of 70 MOA internal adjustment to allow shooting to 700+ yards with a standard zero MOA rail. If you intend to shoot that distance or farther...then a 20 moa angled rail ls required to get full adjustment.

For example...at a recent Precision Rifle Course I attended I needed a 20 MOA rail to make hits at 700 yds using a Vortex HS scope with 70 MOA of internal adjustment and shooting a 7.62x51 Match round. This is because the bullet was dropping 136" ( 11.3 ft) in that distance. Without the rail I would have been at the far extreme of scope adjustment to achieve those hits. That is both hard on the scope internals as well as breaking the general rule of having your scope adjusted to the center of its range when zeroed for the distance you plan to shoot.

On the issue of eye relief...set the scope to it's highest power....then close your eyes and place your check on the stock in a natural position and then look through the scope... If you see a dark "doughnut" around the image... your eye relief is too long. Move the scope further to the rear.

If the image is dark at 12:00 or 6:00 but not a concentric ring...or doughnut...your check piece is too high or low. Or your scope mount height is wrong.

If the image is dark at 9:00 or 3:00....your cheekpiece is too narrow or too fat and you are not centered up on the scope.

You want to be able to close you eyes...place your cheek on the stock in your natural position....then open your eyes and see a full image, in focus...with no dark areas around the perimeter of the image.

HTH

Kerry

 

[itzdapig]

The World Class Tasco's are great scopes. I have owned several and still have at least one. All they lack is the newer coating technology and 30mm tubes.

Tim, It is VERY bad practice to scan with a scope.... as you are sweeping things you don't want to shoot with the muzzle of your gun. Always use a set of good binoculars to identify your target. Once identified...THEN use your scope.

As far as scope adjustments...I can't stand friction turrets. Too easy to bump your adjustment off. I also don't want to have to look at the adjustment I am making to determine the graduations. I want to FEEL it so that I can make adjustments while still keeping my cheek on the stock. I much prefer solid well defined clicks. Which brings up another issue. MOA or Mil adjustments...

If your using a standard Duplex reticle either can be used... with MOA being more common. Just try to get a 1/8th MOA click instead of a 1/4 MOA if you can. Makes for a more precise adjustment. However if you are using a Mil Dot reticle...especially at long distance...use only a scope with .1 Mil graduations. Don't mix a mil dot reticle with MOA adjustments. MUCH harder to use.

Higher magnification scopes require longer scope tubes but that tube length can be reduced somewhat with a tube diameter larger than 1".
30mm is the most common but the military also uses 34 mm tubes.

I don't buy any scopes anymore that are 1" tubes.

On long distance rifles a larger tube also allows a greater range of elevation adjustment to be able to compensate for bullet drop at longer range. Most scopes will need a minimum of 70 MOA internal adjustment to allow shooting to 700+ yards with a standard zero MOA rail. If you intend to shoot that distance or farther...then a 20 moa angled rail ls required to get full adjustment.

For example...at a recent Precision Rifle Course I attended I needed a 20 MOA rail to make hits at 700 yds using a Vortex HS scope with 70 MOA of internal adjustment and shooting a 7.62x51 Match round. This is because the bullet was dropping 136" ( 11.3 ft) in that distance. Without the rail I would have been at the far extreme of scope adjustment to achieve those hits. That is both hard on the scope internals as well as breaking the general rule of having your scope adjusted to the center of its range when zeroed for the distance you plan to shoot.

On the issue of eye relief...set the scope to it's highest power....then close your eyes and place your check on the stock in a natural position and then look through the scope... If you see a dark "doughnut" around the image... your eye relief is too long. Move the scope further to the rear.

If the image is dark at 12:00 or 6:00 but not a concentric ring...or doughnut...your check piece is too high or low. Or your scope mount height is wrong.

If the image is dark at 9:00 or 3:00....your cheekpiece is too narrow or too fat and you are not centered up on the scope.

You want to be able to close you eyes...place your cheek on the stock in your natural position....then open your eyes and see a full image, in focus...with no dark areas around the perimeter of the image.

HTH

Kerry

WOW that is exactly what I was gonna say!!

Kerry has schooled me again!

 

[Tim M]

That helps a lot.....will try that Kerry. As for the scanning, the deer had come to a stop and I was following her (him really) and when he came out the other side of this tree is when he stopped, looked dead at me and only then did I see the spikes. But, you are right, I need a set of binoculars.