New Stadium

STL Mark

STL Mark

Member #001
Honorary Member
Location (City)
Pacific, MO
First Name
Mark
Last Name
Earls
I heard from a reliable source today that there is a move afoot by certain un-named powers that there will shortly begin a push to build a new football stadium complete with retractable roof and meeting NFL specs on the site of the Chrysler plant in Fenton. You heard it here first.

I have a couple of thoughts on this.
1) I'd rather see a car plant and the jobs that go with it on that site.

2) Although this may be good for Fenton, and the Rams, it will be a slow moving disaster for downtown. Another moth-balled building downtown, tax collapse, and bad for Laclede's Landing and the Washington Ave loft district.

3) It may take 10 years, and the infighting will be embarrassing.

What do you think?
 
I say **** em. Let em walk. Go riddance. Taxpayers should not have to pay for their private enterprise crap. :(:mad: The new baseball stadium was not needed & was a waste of $.
 
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Dave & Steve - Agreed. Konke (sp) the new owner of the Rams is part of the richest family on earth (WalMart fortune). It's going to be a tough sell to give these folks any more money for anything. BUT - rest assured - the PR spin is about to begin.

The math is this --- Money + Clever Spin + Time = Stadium.
 
I lived in Houston for 7 years when the Astrodome (Astros, Oilers) and the Summit (Rockets) were all playing. Both venues were in the 'burbs'. While it was easy to access the stadiums, there was limited stuff to do pre and post-game. If you go down there now, guess what.....their baseball, football, and basketball arenas are all downtown. That should say something

My $0.02
 
I've never been to downtown Houston. But downtown STL is a sewer and a warzone IMHO. Besides, where could they build another stadium?
 
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STL Mark said:
I've never been to downtown Houston. But downtown STL is a sewer and a warzone IMHO. Besides, where could they build another stadium?
Click to expand...

So was downtown Houston when I lived there. Vibrant business center during the day, lots of homeless people in the evening...an not a lick of nightlife.

Now, the have redeveloped the crappy east side of downtown and it is an absolute gem!

The big difference...Houston (and Texas for that matter) attracts businesses and generates a bigger tax revenue base, where STL tends to go is doing the opposite.
 
ZERO public $s should go to any private company unless the government is buying something from them.

If it makes sense to build something (stadium, factory, housing development) then do it. If the only way it makes sense is to steal money from the taxpayers, then don't.

Steve
 
I'm not a good source, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night....

There are a lot of rumors about the plant, the two big ones that keep coming up are a stadium and tearing the south plant down and refurbing the north plant as a machine shop for a foreign auto maker(Toyota and Fiat) both keep coming up.

The stadium idea will gain more attention if Kroenke gets the go ahead to buy the team. Mark my words, that decision will be the future of the Rams. If Kroenke doesn't get the ok then the Ram's have packed their bags for the new city. Kroenke wants to team to stay in Stl. If IL pushes too hard to build the stadium MO will have no other alternative if they want to keep the team over here.
 
Steve, that's just silly talk. Believe it or not, there are a lot of businesses that depend on the Cardinals, Rams, and Blues and their success. The amount of revenue 3 million Cardinals fans bring to the area is really immeasurable. Granted, the Rams have fallen on hard times with their team and the draw isn't what they intended. I do agree that the city have given the rams plenty without much return. I as a sports fan wish the Rams would change their pricing structure so every fan has a chance to go, not just those that hold PSL's. Local businesses will stand up and fund the new stadium rather than see it go. I'm sure also that you will get a chance to vote on raising your taxes to support the new stadium. I fear that the good people of Fenton and surrounding areas will vote 'yes' to raising their taxes in hopes of bringing jobs back to the area, but we all know they are jobs most will not want. Let's hope the Rams can eek out 4 wins this year (an improvement) and continue to build a championship team, one day :rolleyes:
 
Purple Venom said:
Steve, that's just silly talk.
Click to expand...

No Tim, its not. What makes the Rams, Cards etc, more important than Mark's, Paul's or my businesses? They're no less important, nor do I doubt that on a percentage basis they contribute to the economy as much as the ball teams do. The city or county haven't paid us to stay in town.

The difference - we don't line the pockets of politicians and we don't give them free seats at games. It's all a big f**king scam.

Sure - if the teams leave some businesses will fail; but others will take their place as people look to spend their entertainment $s somewhere else.

And if the sports fans really don't want to see them go they can either write them a personal check to help or they can pay double or triple for a seat. But that won't happen. They'd rather vote on it so they can make their neighbor that doesn't give a rat's rear end about sports to help subsidize their fun.

Kronke and these owners don't care about the city of St. Louis. All they care about is money. If it was different they wouldn't ask for a nickel. Think about it this way - jeez Grandma, I really love you and you've done so much for me, and I know you need my help, but unless you write me a check for a million $s I'm going to move back to LA. That doesn't sound like love to me.

You will never convince me that taking public money (or private property through eminent domain) and giving it to private companies is morally acceptable or constitutional.

Steve
 
Well put, they charge you for the right to buy tickets (psl), and then for the tickets why should they get your tax money too.
 
So, Steve, you're trying to tell me your business with less than 20 employees generates more business and spends more money than any of the sports teams? Think about it first. You employe 20 people (just a number I picked out of the air), those 20 people make a salary and go out and spend their money on whatever. The rams and cardinals employ 100 people (again, another number I picked, I'm sure it's more), you're telling me, the loss of 80 additional jobs isn't going to hurt the local economy and businesses here that it won't trickle down to you? Wow, what world do you live in? I know VZW experienced a drop in sales and customers whenever the Fenton auto plant shut down, when the ford plant shut down and when SBC decided their hq would be better in Texas.

Sports fans ARE supporting the teams by going and buying tickets. I'm with you on raising or adding taxes to pay for a new stadium should NOT be the way to go, but long term, what are the effects without them? I do believe the city could survive without the Rams, but no way the Cardinals. Take this article in - http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/columns/story?columnist=joyce_gare&id=3622898

So, do we know these answers:
- How much tax did we the taxpayer contribute to the new Cardinals stadium?
- How much tax did we the taxpayer contribute to the dome (built in 1995 btw)?
- How many employees do the sports teams have?

Maybe I'm getting out to left field on this...? :confused:
 
Tim:

Unless you buy into "the ends justifies the means" the numbers are irrelevant.

Suppose that the voters decide that taking your Cobra and destroying it is the best thing to do since it will reduce greenhouse gasses and force you to buy a more fuel efficient car (creating jobs); does that make it right? Of course not. But that is exactly what happens anytime public money is given to a private business under the guise of "economic development".

Steve
 
I don't know where to start or stop on this issue...I am on my local Economic Development Commission so I do deal with these issues. Giving tax abatements within an Enterprise Zone or Tax Increment Increments can and does have its merits. I have personally taken advantage of these programs when expanding my business...was it a prime consideration in my expansion...No it was not but it was there and I did take advantage of it.
Should government "give" land, infastructer improvements and other advantages to private enterprise? These are considerations take on an individual basis. Should taxes increase for individuals/small business's to bring/retain business's? I say no.
Incentives need to be put in front of expanding/new business but the local taxing entities should be the sole source of finance.
I remember when the Ram's were looking at coming to St Louis. Kroneke (from Columbia, Mo and the primary owner of the real estate arm of Wal Mart) was a strong supporter and used his money to influence the legislators to have the tax payors of Mo pay for the new stadium.He seems to have been posturing himself the be the owner of the Rams.
Kroneke is a benevolent individual, as he funded the sports complex in Columbia.
Now for the difference between us small business owners and large corporations is the amount of money we have available for support/lobbeying. We just do not have the clout that cash heavy corporations have available to influence governmental entities(the ones we all vote for and trust to represent us).
My guess is the time has run out on the Rams stadium to continue to get tax breaks or incentives so the will go after a new stadium with the taxpayors footing the bill.
I think you Show Me State constituants should voice your opinions loud and clear to your elected representives on this matter(pro or con).
I was a season ticket holder to the Cardinals baseball and football teams for many years(although I lived in Illinois)When the football team left your fine city, I do not recall a concerted effort to keep them. I dropped my baseball tickets because of the price. I have been a Cardinal fan since I was old enough to skip school and go to a game..three stadiums later(in my short life span) the only time I go to a game is when I am offered free tickets from my banker/investment advisor or some other corporate entitie. The cost for a family to attend a game on thier own dime has gotten obscene.

Don't know if my rambling has hit home with anyone but that is how I feel about this issue.
 
Thanks Mike for the insight. I don't buy in to the "end justifies the means", but I do buy in to doing what can be done in order to keep hundreds of people employed. If that requires the masses to pay 1/2 cent sales tax or something to keep my fellow american's employed, then I'm ok with that. I completely agree that the owners need to carry more if not all of the burden to build their new palace so we the fan can go pay top dollar to watch them. I fully believe the Rams will move in the next 5 - 10 years, not because we won't vote on a new tax to build a stadium, but because no one is going to the games.

Steve, somehow, I think we agree, more than less. :D
 
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